You Want the Tax Cut Facts? Democrats Will Raise Your Taxes. Period.

Try The CATO Institute. If you’re looking for TaxCutFacts.Org, the site set up by the Obama campaign that, surprisingly, finds that Obama has the better tax plan, well, you know where to find it. And about how far you can trust it.

 

Kinda says it all. And so pithy, too.

Kinda says it all. And so pithy, too.

The reality is, Democrats don’t every cut taxes. Period. 

 

All Hail Obama. Surrender your wallets.

All Hail Obama. Surrender your wallets.

This guys isn’t going to, either. While a rational person isn’t going to be rooting for higher taxes on the folks who hire people, build businesses, and purchases services and products from other businesses that help keep the real world running–the rational person also recognizes that the reality is, with Obama, you aren’t going to get a tax cut. You aren’t. Democrats do not cut taxes. Ever.

Bill Clinton promised a middle-class tax cut. During the campaign.

What happened with that? Oh, that’s right. It didn’t.

 

Yes We Can. Raise Your Taxes. Ha-ha, Fooled You!

Yes We Can. Raise Your Taxes. Ha-ha, Fooled You!

I mean, there will be a good reason. Some sort of spin. A really great reason that, even though more taxes are disappearing from your paycheck and your 401k has just been unilaterally taken over by Big Brother, you somehow got a tax cut, even though you’re getting less money. It really was a tax cut. Only, the extra service charges and hidden fees and special deductions and other things mean, yes, you are technically getting less money now. But Obama still gave you that middle-class tax cut. That somehow cost you money.

Or, maybe it’s that Biden emergency. After that generated crisis Biden talked about, things are too dire. Everybody must understand that, even though we go through with the tax increases, we can’t do the tax cuts now. Not with this crisis.

 

Obama Gonna Pwn all You Noobs and Your Moneys.

Obama Gonna Pwn all You Noobs and Your Moneys.

 

 

McCain’s tax cuts might not sound as good as Obama’s, but they are much more likely to actually show up. Not a guarantee–McCain ain’t exactly a rock-ribbed Reagan conservative. But more likely.

What is a guarantee, that, if you work–and I mean, work much at all–the Democrats will take more of your money from you. The Bush tax cuts will expire. The Democrats will come up with programs that “cut” your taxes while taking more “investments” out of your paychecks.

How do I know this? Because they will. They cannot help it. Taking more of your money is a congenital condition with Democrats. It’s not something they can stop, except by becoming Republicans. And often, not even that will do it.

11 Responses to “You Want the Tax Cut Facts? Democrats Will Raise Your Taxes. Period.”


  1. 1 Mr. America October 27, 2008 at 9:30 pm

    I keep hearing that if we make the rich richer thier overflowing pockets will trickle down to the poor.. The fact is the richer the rich get the worse off this country is.

    The economy is driven by the middle class. In the past eight years the rich have gotten very rich but the middle class has gotten poorer.
    Why?

    To make money the rich have driven down wages and shipped jobs overseas. They have gotten rid of benefits, insurance, and pensions to pad their profit margin. The rich use excuses like higher taxes and unfriendly corporate legislation as their reasons for cutting back. But rich have doubled their money over the last 8 years alone!

    The rich say they drive the economy by providing jobs. But they are sending jobs at an ever increasing rate overseas. The rich say the drive the economy by purchasing things. The truth is the vast majority of goods that the rich buy are made and imported from other countries such as France, Germany, and Japan to name a few. Furniture, clothes, food, cars, and even the basic goods they buy are not made by Americans.

    The middle class buys the goods that Americans make. The middle class drives the economy and the less money they have the worse we all are even the rich. If America keeps going down the path its on everyday people will not be able to afford the goods that drive the American economy. All the things made in America are usually bought buy the middle class.

    While our corrupt government is filled with ex corporate CEO’s the middle class has suffered. The rich have put this country into a recession and made the middle class foot the bill. Our secretary of the treasury used to be the CEO of Goldmann Sachs. Funny how he wrote a sweet deal for wallstreet giving out $700 billion of our tax money without any oversight to how its spent.

    Does anyone else notice that while Goldman Sachs was spared from bankruptcy its competition Lehman Brothers is now defunct? Why is our secretary of the treasury writing policies that are favorable to the rich on wallstreet and not to the over 300,000,000 million people he works for.

    If the last 8 years has showed us anything it is that trickle down economics are not working. We need to tax the rich and invest back into the middle class. When our economy rebounds those taxes can be lowered and the rich can start making more money again, but in a responsible and American way. No more shipping jobs overseas and importing more goods than we export. No more making money off of credit. No more making money by selling our country to China and Saudi Arabia. And no more bad business for America.

    Barak Obama will not solve our problems. John McCain will not solve our problems.

    We need everyone to make their voices heard. Changes need to be made everywhere and people need to get involved. Congress needs to be replaced. The Senate needs to be replaced. We need people in these offices that will work only for America not corporate rule. We need to put our petty differences aside and collectively change the way America works. We need to put our economy back into the hands of the middle class and grow that class. We need to grow strong ethical American business so the rich can satisfy thier greed while not putting America in the toilet.

    The rich need to sacrafice for once. They need to tighten their belt and help foot the bill for the restoration of our great nation. It is basic logic to understand that the more money the middle class has, the more money the rich can make off of them. So mostly the rich need to invest back into this country not take more out at a time close to economic collapse. If the rich do their part then they should be rewarded by having favorable legislation once this economic crisis is over.

    SO just don’t vote for president and think you have made a difference. Call your congressman. Call your Senator. Call your Governor. Vote whats best for America not yourself. If everyone took one day a month to flood these government officials with demands for change we could make a difference. If we voted for principle and America instead of voting for party affiliation we could make a difference. It will get worse if we do nothing so act now.

  2. 2 memetrics October 27, 2008 at 9:45 pm

    Mr. America,

    Thanks for your thoughtful if cut-and-pasted-looking reply.

    Lots of interesting points. “The rich need to sacrafice for once. They need to tighten their belt and help foot the bill for the restoration of our great nation.”

    As an entity, the greatest conglomeration of wealth is already the federal government. Why don’t they need to tighten their belt? The federal government is spending more than it ever has. Why shouldn’t it have to “sacrifice” and let folks keep more of their hard-earned money?

    Don’t forget, Obama is gonna let the Bush tax cuts expire. Now, that’ll hit the “rich”, family farmers, and small businesses plenty hard, but if you aren’t any of those things you’ll just think it’s the rich. Good for you. But your taxes are going to go up, too. Middle-class. Lower-middle class. If you pay any income tax at all, Obama is going to be taking more of your money. It’s not technically a tax hike, since they are just letting the tax cuts “expire”.

    Admittedly, for some conservatives, it’s a moral point. The rich make their money, they should get to keep it. Fair enough. But I’m not talking about that. I’m just saying, taxing the rich to make them pay “their fair share” and thus “redistribute the wealth” to the poor and middle class is not an economy strategy that actually works. Any more than giving mortgages to anybody who can breathe in the name of “affordable housing” turned out to be a good idea. Indeed, there will be many “unintented consequences”, including the sheltering of capital that will protect that money for “the rich” and increasing the tax burden borne by us, the middle class.

    “If the last 8 years has showed us anything it is that trickle down economics are not working.”

    It’s shown us nothing of the sort. If anything, it helps illustrate the point. Taxes are cut, revenues to the Federal treasury increased. Capital gains tax got cut, and the amount of money realized through the capital gains tax went up, not down. The federal government was getting more money after the tax cuts, not less. And the government spent even more than that. The problem is not that the government doesn’t get enough money, the problem is it spends like a drunken sailor. Not sure if either candidate will stop that, but let’s call a thing what it is here. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were the antithesis of trickle-down economics. The bailout bill was the antithesis of trickle-down economics. This is not trickle-down economics at work here, and where it has been applied, it has worked–and worked well. However, it ain’t enough to offset crazy “affordable housing” subprime lending practices, or the accounting rules of the overly-oppressive Sarbanes-Oxley, etc.

    But, lots of good points. I agree on a lot of ’em. Thanks for the cut-and-paste comment, Mr. America.

  3. 3 memetrics October 27, 2008 at 9:47 pm

    “The richer the rich get, the worse off the country is.” Sorry, Mr. America, that’s just stupid. How can making rich people worse off help the country? Seriously? And how can the rich get richer in a free market without benefitting the masses? Plus, the rich already pay the lion’s share of taxes. The richer the rich are, the more people they hire, the more they invest, and the more they buy from businesses, large and small, employing people and paying bills. The fact is, the more successful a country is, the richer the rich will get. Trying to micro-manage that will cause all kind of hurt.

    And I think you’re probably going to get to see it happen.

  4. 4 Mr America October 28, 2008 at 2:19 am

    “Obama is gonna let the Bush tax cuts expire. Now, that’ll hit the1 “rich”, family farmers, and small businesses plenty hard, but if you aren’t any of those things you’ll just think it’s the rich. Good for you.”

    Wow. I come from Kansas and have yet to meet a farmer making hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Must be nice where you come from.

    “Thanks for your thoughtful if cut-and-pasted-looking reply.”

    Nice insult but I did write the whole thing myself like it or not. I’m sure you insult others to make yourself feel better a classic trait of the rich.

    I used to be middle class but now am poor. I was making $50k a year for my family of four. We were not rich but happy and led good lives. Then comes Bush and his pro-rich legislation. Now my wife and I have two jobs each just to make it. We spend no time together and it is starting to affect my marriage. Everything has gone up in price while my pay has been cut. I have had to give concessions to keep my job for fear of loosing my job overseas. My health insurance has gone up so I can only afford to cover my kids now. Now you want to tell my family memetric to give more tax breaks to the wealthy? My belt is tightened to the limit memetrics while the CEO’s of corporations that say they have no money are making hundreds of millions of dollars A YEAR! While the rich get richer I get poorer.

    I never said the government is not a problem. I think I said that congress and the senate need to be replaced. I think I said that Obama nor McCain would sole anything. The only thing that will grow the middle class is if the me me me selfish attitudes like memetrics change and people start putting the country first.

    “The richer the rich are, the more people they hire, the more they invest, and the more they buy from businesses, large and small, employing people and paying bills. The fact is, the more successful a country is, the richer the rich will get. Trying to micro-manage that will cause all kind of hurt.”

    Where have you been? The rich are making insane profits. The top 1% now control more of Americas wealth than ever. The have continued to ship jobs overseas not grow jobs in the U.S. Rich corporations are buying goods from China not america because it’s cheaper. They are wage-slaves in China and thats what the rich want for America. No vacations, no recreation, no retirement. Just work untill you die while the top 1% continue to make money.

    Making changes and forcing the top 1% to pay heavily for exporting jobs and shrinking wages and benefits will go a long way to help everybody. There is massive amounts of money to make offthe middle class not the poor. Giving breaks to American small business who give their employees good benefits will create a stable small business environment. Making sure families have health care will eventuall reduce costs across the board as more and more costly medical situations will be caught early.

    Memetrics you can say that a redistribution of wealth from top to bottom is bad but you failp to mention that the redistribution of wealth has already been going on for years. From the bottom to the top the redistribution of wealth has been in full force and no on has said anything about it. Now when people want to set it back to the levels when the middle class was strong we hear people like you saying it’s unfair. Why is it not unfair when the rich take from the poor but it is unfair when the poor take from the rich?

    The rich always play the victim like they are the working man just trying to make a buck to feed their family. The are not. The rich live extravagant lives of excess. They take vacations the middle class could only dream of. They purchase foreign goods and services and care not about the plight of the working man or that their new $200,000 car comes at the expense of workers not having health care. The guilty don’t feel guilty they learn not to.

  5. 5 memetrics October 28, 2008 at 10:38 am

    Touchy, touchy, Mr. America.

    “Wow. I come from Kansas and have yet to meet a farmer making hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Must be nice where you come from.”

    Obama plans to raise taxes significantly on anyone making $250k a year, or more. He recently hinted that $200k might be a better ceiling. Now, frankly, that ain’t going to affect me. The most my combined household income has ever been is $70k, and that was one year. You telling me that you don’t know any farmers who have revenues of $250k? Maybe not. But it will affect a lot of people.

    And the Bush tax cuts effected anyone who paid income tax, period. If you paid income tax, you got a tax cut. Not just the rich. Not even primarily the rich. They make more money, so they got to keep more money, but . . . if you like to blame the guy in the Whitehouse and people with more money on your problems, you’re going to do it no matter what I say.

    “Where have you been?”

    On planet Earth. I ain’t got time to live on Planet Point-the-finger-of-Blame-at-Everybody-else.

    “The rich are making insane profits.”

    Um, duh. That’s why we call them rich.

    “The top 1% now control more of Americas wealth than ever.”

    That will always be the case, and the more robust the economy is, the greater the divide between rich and poor, and rich and middle class, will be. The fact that there will be more rich people, and that even the poor will be richer in relative terms, not withstanding. I know you think you can kill the goose that lays the golden eggs and get all the eggs at once, and then you can use them to pay for healthcare and make everybody equally middle-class and Leave it to Beaver, but that ain’t how it works.

    “The have continued to ship jobs overseas not grow jobs in the U.S.”

    Because of unions and taxes partially, so this will only get worse as corporate and capital gains taxes go up–why in the world do you think making it more expensive for businesses to operate in our country is going to make greedy rich people do anything but outsource and relocate faster?–and then general business costs.

    “Rich corporations are buying goods from China not america because it’s cheaper.”

    And who benefits? The American consumer. The inflation-adjusted price of most goods is cheaper than it was in the 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s and on, because of the global market place. Certain food items are as expensive, if a little more, than they have been historically–in no small part thanks to the ethanol push. But, on the whole, our purchasing power is much greater than that of our parents or grandparents because of these evil rich people and their getting stuff in China so I can buy a DVD player for $30 bucks.

    Folks in your mindset are really all on about killing the Golden Goose.

    “Giving breaks to American small business who give their employees good benefits will create a stable small business environment.”

    I don’t have a problem with that, but Democrats are going to give small businesses any kind of breaks. I’m not sure about the Republicans, either, frankly, in this case. But don’t expect it to be happening. And, if anything like it happens, expect there to be sticky, nasty strings attached.

    “Making sure families have health care will eventuall reduce costs across the board as more and more costly medical situations will be caught early” . . . didn’t Hawaii just do that? And then have to put an end to it in 7 months? Because, um, it didn’t save costs?

    “Memetrics you can say that a redistribution of wealth from top to bottom is bad but you failp to mention that the redistribution of wealth has already been going on for years.”

    Hoo-boy. Here we go. Um, so, rich people are rich because of the government taxing the poor and giving that money to the rich? That’s capital accumulation, not wealth redistribution. The poor people didn’t have that money in the first place, most of “the poor” aren’t going to be poor in a decade, so they aren’t going to be on “the bottom” anymore, and a small percentage of “the poor” in 1998 are now “the evil rich”. So you want to take money from the formerly poor who got rich to give to the poor to help them stay poor? Or just pay for their healthcare?

    “From the bottom to the top the redistribution of wealth has been in full force and no on has said anything about it.”

    This is not rational, Mr. America. The poor do not have the wealth collectively to make the rich rich, and, in any case, where they do buy a stick of gum or a bottle of soda, they are making a voluntary economic decision. The rich get rich (ideally) by providing products and services that people need and want at a competitive price. That’s the only way rich people get money from poor people, and it’s a voluntary transaction on all ends.

    “Why is it not unfair when the rich take from the poor but it is unfair when the poor take from the rich?”

    Well, if I was going to make the fairness argument, I would point out that when we buy products from companies because we need or desire them, we are making voluntary transactions that benefit us, the store we buy from, and the company that makes the goods that the store sells, and many others. And that’s how rich people get our money, not via government mandate and taxes withheld from our paychecks. When we take from the rich to give to the poor, it is an involuntary transaction, much like theft. Based on that logic, if you have something nice that I don’t have, it would be entirely reasonably for me to take it from you. If you were married to a lovely woman and I was single, it would be perfectly okay for me to kidnap your wife (in a moral sense), because you were enjoying a better quality of life than I, and I deserve some of that lifestyle you enjoy, after all. If I have cancer and you don’t, it’s perfectly acceptable for me to harm you physically in some way. You know, to make it even.

    I’m not big on the fairness argument, because there is a more fundamental flaw in the get-evenism of “the rich have too much and they all suck so lets take their money!” Which is, it’s cutting off your nose to spite your face. Like it or not, rich people and large accumulations of capital are part of the economic engine, just like having to go to the bathroom is part of living. Some people not like going to the bathroom, but never going potty would be deadly in pretty short order. In the same vein, making rich people “pay” for being so rich and extravagant (and, BTW, the extravagant lifestyles of the rich employ tens-of-thousands of people who would otherwise be without work, but you’re not in any kind of career that benefits from spoiled rich people, so screw all those other dumb SOBs whose jobs depend of rich people spending money, screw them and their families, right? As long as you get yours. So, so much more enlightened than those evil rich people, Mr. America).

    “The rich always play the victim like they are the working man just trying to make a buck to feed their family. The are not. The rich live extravagant lives of excess. They take vacations the middle class could only dream of. They purchase foreign goods and services and care not about the plight of the working man or that their new $200,000 car comes at the expense of workers not having health care. The guilty don’t feel guilty they learn not to.”

    Look, I don’t think I’m going to convince you to see my point. I already know what you’re saying, but I disagree. It’s not about rich people pretending to be victims, which is as repellant to me as I suspect it is to you. It’s about not being emotional and stupid and strangling the economy and hurting many more people in the name of “fairness”. Which is really “get-even-with-em-ism”, not fairness, anyway.

    BTW, you are poor and you have a computer. I am middle-middle class at best, and I feel poor most days. And I have a computer. And a cell phone. Do you have a cell phone? It’s a struggle, but we pay for basic cable, in addition to our Internet connection. Do you have cable? or a TV? Or a DVD player? Or a car? And you consider yourself “poor”?

    Seriously, you need to think about that. To some extent, poverty is a state of mind, and reason you can be “poor” and have a computer and an Internet connection and a car and someplace to live and three square meals if you want is because you live in a capitalist economy that, yes, allows people to get much richer than you.

    Sheesh. I’ve got actual work that might pay me money one day to do. I need to get to it. Two things:

    I recommend you read Thomas Sowell’s Basic Economics:

    http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Economics-3rd-Ed-Economy/dp/0465002609

    A portion of it is also available on Google Books, and product of our evil capitalist system that is run by Evil Rich People who have more money in their front pocket than we will ever have in our lives. And they are very liberal folks who have funneled tons of money to Obama. Just so ya know.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ax6dsqMdPHQC&dq=thomas+sowell+economics&pg=PP1&ots=gS4q2MelAU&source=bn&sig=z7W4vkjYXksepKcKrNkHrFrgB7U&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA1,M1

    And, finally, I wrote about the problems with class envy and going off on Rich people back in 2004, after having recently had both cash and assets redistributed from poor me to a much richer person via some legal wrangling and Machiavellian tactics I was not prepared for at the time. I’ve had the direct, not indirect, experience of someone much better off than me taking a significant portion of my money and years of my work, with zero compensation, while they continue to benefit from the sales of products from the sweat of my brow to this day. But I’m still not going to argue the government should generally redistribute wealth for rich people to make things more “fair”.

    Anyway, here’s what I wrote:

    http://www.kevinwillis.net/viewarticle.php?&artID=112

    The problem with rich people is, first and foremost, they’re rich and we’re not. So they suck. The next problem is, for anybody who has rubbed elbows with the fabulously wealthy or some of the high-ranking corporate go-getters, a lot of them aren’t that smart, or aren’t that nice, or are out-and-out creeps. Some of them aren’t just hard-working entreprenuers–some of them are sneaks, thieves, and liars out to screw you. All the while painting themselves as benevolent, caring employers/colleagues/all-around-rich guys.

    From the McMansion set to the truly obscenely wealthy, I’ve been both appalled and amazed at the shallow pursuits the wealthy among us indulge in, and how some with so much financial largesse are so hostile to the idea of doing any philanthropic good. I’ve seen the rationalizations and even the victimology of some well-to-do people–it’s amazing how unfair life is, when you’re a wealthy business man.

    And, yeah, lots of them are sneaks or cheats or creeps or suffer from delusions of granduer, or perhaps all of the above. Some of them take our great ideas, make a mint, and give us the shaft–in perfectly good conscious, because, from their world view, everybody around them lives their lives to make them successful. Everything should be about them. To them, you are a cog–and an ungrateful cog at that. The rich are different from you and me–they are progressively more shallow, short-sighted, self-centered, and creepy.

    So, what’s the solution? Why, it’s obvious! Tax the hell out of the rich. Ensure a generous living wage for everybody, even if it has to be subsidized. Get rid of private property–why should those rich cretins get to own private property? Make them turn over the McMansions to the poor and indigent. Wouldn’t that be something?

    The problem is, the emotionally impulsive argument that wants to punish the evil rich–and, make no mistake, a lot of them are close enough to evil that I think you can use the word–and reward the impoverished does exactly the opposite. As Socialism and Communism has proved every time, the desire to create equality between everybody ends up concentrating a huge amount of wealth and power in the hands of a very small group of unaccountable political heavies and bureaucrats. There is no incentive, for the rich or the poor, to serve an industry or produce a compelling product. There is no compelling reason on the whole to invent new technologies or cure a disease, and the ones that suffer the most are the disenfranchised–the poor, usually the extremely poor, who are tricked into believing the lie that, because lots of rich people are oblivious creeps, their life would someone be better if the rich weren’t rich. That things would be better or more fair for them if their boss had no more income, or property, than they did–by force of law.

    While Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor–the rich being, typically, the tax-collecting government, a part of the story most social egalitarians leave out when invoking the comparison–the fact is, that’s not how you make things better for the greatest number of people. The way you make things better for the greatest number of people is to protect private property with the rule of law, and then get out of the way. Let the rich be shallow ninnies, let them burn hundred dollar bills while lighting cigars, let them waste the largess in pointless indulgence–because the same system that lets them do that also improves the health and wealth of every other human being in it. Period. End of story.

    But rich people are unfair and sometimes they drive people out of business and, anyway, my boss was rich and he was an asshole . . . I hear somebody–actually, an almagation of real people I’ve heard over the years–whine at me.

    Sure, okay, but that’s just life. Does anyone really want a 3rd world standard of living for the entire planet–just to punish those nasty rich people? Because if you disable the system that creates selfish and oblivious rich people, you disable the system that provides jobs, innovates with new products and services, and elevates the rest of humanity. It’s “the cutting off of the nose to spite the face”. Or, as some have colloquially put it, it’s like “shitting in your hat”.

    The fact is, the poor are unfair and mean, and so are the middle class. There is nothing inherently noble in being poor or middle-class, and lots of those people are creeps and cretins, too. And there are as many sycophantic backstabbers shining the wealthy plantation owner’s boots who would still just as soon shoot you as look at you as there are creepy rich guys.

    The problems of “unfairness” and “inequality” aren’t confined to the wealthy–the poor and middle-class can be just as unfair and unequal in their treatment of people, if not more so.

    In the end, worrying over how much money the rich have in a free market society (and it is amazing how liberals cannot distinguish the historical difference between the rich in despotic or feudal societies of the past and the rich of today) is not rational. The richer the rich are in a free market society, the richer the poor are. And the richer we all are in the long run, as a society that creates billionaire asshole also creates an unparalleled standard of living for everybody else as well as advances in the arts, science and health.

    Finally, if you just can’t stop worrying over the fact that rich people have a lot of money they really don’t “deserve”, you can console yourself with the fact that more money doesn’t make you any happier. Given that quadriplegics are, as a group, statistically happier than lottery winners, it should make you think twice, next time you worry over your rich neighbor’s fancy cars.

    It may sound pat or cliche, but you only reap what you sew. Sure, some people may end up with a lot more money than you think they deserve–I’ve seen it happen, I know it does–but joy and satisfaction doesn’t come from the destination, but the journey.

    My humble suggestion is this: worry less about how much money other people have or how they got it or if they deserve it, and focus more on what you can do to build a meaningful, satisfying life, and be the best human being you can possibly be. Because only then can you really be happy, and no amount of money can ever buy that for you.

    Certainly, “taxing the rich” isn’t going to make you any wealthier or happier, so I’d think twice when money-grubbing politicians say you ought to vote for them because they’re going to “tax the rich” so that they can line their pockets and expand their power base.

    Then, I’d pull the lever for someone who wants to do something other than take money out of the marketplace to shore up the power of bureaucrats. But, that’s up to you . . .

  6. 6 Mr. America October 28, 2008 at 2:36 pm

    I understand your points and could debate for years why the rich ship jobs overseas or reduce benefits. You say its that the cost to do American business has gone up that is why the rich have to outsource and reduce benefits. I think it is mostly wallstreet and the super rich that have to make more and more profits every year to justify their huge salaries and make the shareholders feel good.

    I have nothing against the rich but I must admit my attitude is that they are responsible for the problems in America. My family does not live an extravagant life. Yes I do have a T.V. but that does not make me rich. I do not own a cell phone nor cable but do own a computer. I also own a guitar so that must mean that I am super rich.

    As I have been saying my buying power has gone down and I am making more money. So excuse me if I get upset when I see the taxpayer footing the bill to the tune of $700 billion dollars. This money is going to be used to support the rich so they can enjoy excesses that me and my family never will. The rich have armies of lawyers to hide their income and avoid paying taxes. The want low dividend taxes so they can make money doing nothing instead of rolling up their sleeves and investing in America.

    The middle class can help get America out of debt. In order to do that their buying power must be increased and the class grown. We have to tax heavily those who ship jobs overseas to make it more profitable to do business at home.

    The rich buy poor goods to help the consumer but hurt the country. If someone offers a cheaper price most will choose that option. I myself try not to purchase anything made in China but others in America don’t care. If we taxed imports and made American made goods cheaper than we wouldn’t have to buy from China. The fact that they have no benefits and no insurance in China is a great reason those items are cheaper.

    My grandfather immigrated to this country and served in WWII. He always tells me how bad things have gotten and how the shrinking of the middle class is due to bad for America business that put profits and shareholders first before country. He tells me how he saw firsthand, the deregulation of every industry opening the door for the rich to redistribute massive amounts of wealth from bottom to top while putting everyone in debt. This is not the America he fought for.

    I am not an expert on economics. I do not have all the answers and cannot see the future. All I know is that the middle class must be looked after and grown. The middle class does not have armies of lawyers or lobbyists to write them favorable legislation. The middle class does not have the one true and only factor that matters, money.

    The rich like to claim that they already pay more taxes and paying more would shut down industry. But the rich have many sources of income and hide their true income with loopholes and lawyers. Its hard to argue that the middle class should pay more because they make less income. Of course if you are making hundreds of millions of dollars you are paying more taxes than someone who makes $50k a year. If you are making hundreds of millions of dollars a year you obviously have more income to live off of. Taxes do not hurt the quality of life of the rich as much as they do the middle class or lower.

    You keep saying that Obama’s plan will tax those making $250k a year or more. I keep saying that he is not the answer to our problems. I am willing to pay more taxes if it means gaining more in benefits and healthcare. I am willing to pay more in taxes if it means we can stop owing China money. I am willing to pay more in taxes so the guy below me can get to my level. And mabey these rich are afraid of others getting to their level and thats why they create the myth that they cant profit off of business that is good for America.

    I don’t care if the rich are nice or not. I don’t want to stick it to them because they did me wrong. I want this country to get back to growing things American. I want it to be more expensive to buy things made in China and I want it to be cheaper to buy things made in the U.S. I want good jobs with benefits and insurance for hard working Americans that don’t have the ability or lack of morals to accumulate massive amounts of wealth. I want my children to go to college and have a better life than mine.

    The rich have had their time to make our lives better. It is not getting any better. It is worse everywhere. Everyone I know is cutting back on everything while CEO’s for failing corporations are taking in hundreds of millions of dollars.

    Will taxing the rich solve all of the problems? NO! The government needs to change. America needs to pay off its debt and regulate how business is done. We need to make it hard to make money by growing foreign interests and easy to make money by improving America. We need to regulate wallstreet so corporations don’t have shareholders as excuses to why they need to cut benefits and insurance for everyday workers.

    It is not about fairness. It is not about taking more from the rich because they are rich. We need the rich to help bailout our nation. We need everyone but we need the rich because we can’t do it without them. Just fixing the way our government spends money won’t do the job alone and the rich have to have their money taken away by gunpoint because they will never give anything to anyone. That is why they are rich. They got rich by taking things away from others such as benefits and health insurance not giving anything away to anyone.

    I think that the rich and their life of excess has gone way overboard. Some of these people need massive amounts of income to maintain thier lavish lifestyle so they are forced to make more and more each year. With more power the rich lobby hard for legislation favorable to them. The middle class can send their letters and make phone calls but politicians are going to do what lobbyists pay them to do. The rich make the rules and always get what they want. What they wanted was this current business model and everyone is hurting because of it.

    Like I said I can debate for years the issue of giving more breaks to the middle class than the rich. I guess i’m a populist as I always have been taught to do what’s best for the majority. I know the middle class and poor greatly outnumber the rich so you can guess who I am rooting for. But I don’t feel like the rich owe me anything nor do I want to take away the ability to be rich. I am just tired of the way the rich do business and want something better for my family.

    The business model that the rich have built is bad for America period. The rich have been building and furthering these bad business practices for decades. It has now become a corrupt system of business that focuses on consolidating wealth while driving down the quality of life for hard working Americans. While our government plays politics the middle class continues to get mugged by the top 1%. Now when it is time to hold the rich as the first people accountable in this mess everybody cries foul. Well America the sleepy giant is waking and people are starting to notice the loss of jobs, benefits, and insurance because it is starting to happen to them or people they know.

    Obama and McCain are in the top 1%’s corner. Neither one will do much to stop the rich from sucking the life blood out of America. They will do nothing untill their actions start affecting them but they are untouchable. They have so much money they can just move or find business elsewhere. If America fails the rich still have Paris.

    The middle class are the ones who will suffer while the rich sit back and watch. I am afraid of loosing my job and my family living on the streets. I am afraid of me or my children getting sick and not being able to get care. I am afraid that one day I won’t have enough to feed my family. What fears of mine do the top 1% share with me?

    I am happy being middle class and working for a living. I am sure I could take up business and become rich if I really worked hard at it. But I am not that type of person. My family and I don’t need expensive things to be happy so we are not driven to make large sums of money. Therefore I guess I cannot sympathize with the need to try to pay as little taxes as possible. I don’t have the government trying to take half of my hundred million dollars. I don’t even make fifty thousand dollars a year so you can probably guess i’ll say at least you still have fifty million.

    Sorry if this looks cut and paste. You are very articulate and intelligent memetrics I can’t compete. I cannot tell where you are coming from but I think your point is to not tax the rich just because. I get you there but I know the problem America faces will need money to fix so I look first to the people that have the most.

    I do not agree with your argument of class envy because people look to the rich for help not to punish them. Most people understand that the rich were a prime cause in why our economy runs the way it does. This is why we look to the rich to help fix the problem not because we want to pay them back for being rich.

    I do not agree with your argument that the poor can’t make the rich richer because by taking away benefits, insurance, and pay the rich have become more wealthy. By shipping jobs overseas the rich make more money and this is at the cost of the middle class and poor.

    Like I have been saying we all need to put aside all the crap and just work together. The rich will have to be taxed more in order to generate the income needed to offset the cost of changing the way business in America is done. The middle class will have to be grown and more money put into their pockets to generate spending. All this can be done if we stop the madness of the rich and all become Americans again.

  7. 7 memetrics October 28, 2008 at 4:37 pm

    “I do not agree with your argument of class envy because people look to the rich for help not to punish them. Most people understand that the rich were a prime cause in why our economy runs the way it does. This is why we look to the rich to help fix the problem not because we want to pay them back for being rich.”

    That’s fine. The way to do it is not through the government, which is another prime cause of this mess. Taking wealth from producers and “the rich” and giving it to the federal government, which is, if anything, more flush with cash and less responsible with money than the most indolent trust-fund billionaire brat, is not a good idea. In fact, I’d argue it’s not an “idea” at all. It’s an emotional reaction, and puts both the blame for our problems and the source for solutions in the wrong place.

    “The middle class will have to be grown and more money put into their pockets to generate spending. All this can be done if we stop the madness of the rich and all become Americans again.”

    Dude, that sure sounds like class envy to me. Stopping “the madness of the rich” is something that is emotionally satisfying, but won’t prop up the middle class. It won’t put more money in your pocket–and if there ends up being more money in your pocket in the future, which I certainly hope, it won’t be because “the rich got theirs”.

    “My family and I don’t need expensive things to be happy so we are not driven to make large sums of money.”

    Then let go of the resentment. It doesn’t do you, or the economy, any good. And if you blame “the rich” for the individual decisions of different business owners, CEOs, stockholders and individual employees, you’re not doing yourself, or anybody else, any good. I’d be the first person to agree that money does not make you happy. But neither does blaming others for “problems”, or looking to the biggest, most irresponsible, most indebted, most wasteful superwealthy corporation on this planet–the United States Federal Government–for answers.

    “The middle class are the ones who will suffer while the rich sit back and watch. I am afraid of loosing my job and my family living on the streets.”

    Then your placing your faith in the wrong political ideology. That’s all I can tell ya. An Bill Gates does nothing (The Gates Foundation)? Andrew Carnegie did nothing? The Ford family did nothing . . . except the Ford Foundation? Warren Buffet does nothing? I mean, admittedly, most of the super-famous rich people are liberal and would agree more with you than with me–because the more the government steps in to “do good works”, the more they are relieved from doing anything themselves to improve the world–but still, they are out there. They are doing stuff. The idea that putting more and more wealth under the auspices of a big, federal bureaucracy that is made of exactly the same types of human beings that make up corporate bureaucracy and the ranks of the “evil rich” that just “sit and watch” as the poor suffer (Big Government will do that, too, BTW, and voting to have them take more of your money isn’t going to change that, it’ll just limit what we can do in our own back yards).

    “I guess i’m a populist as I always have been taught to do what’s best for the majority”

    And I agree. However, I don’t think what’s best for the majority is what is most “emotionally satisfying” for the majority. I think it’s what generates the most real wealth and technological innovation, and redistribution of wealth and nationalization of wealth–which does seem to be the way we’re headed–is not it.

    Look, I’m one guy with one vote. I’m going to vote for the guy who will do less to tax Americans of all stripes, but even he isn’t that great. Will do the same, as I can, when I vote for the congress and local elections, but you never know–politicians like Other People’s Money, and they can surprise you.

    But I also want what is best for the majority. We just disagree on how you actually get there.

    “I am willing to pay more taxes if it means gaining more in benefits and healthcare.”

    Then buy your own health insurance. You think the government plans are going to cost you any less, vs. the benefits you will end up receiving? I assume you tie your own shoes. You can purchase your own insurance. I’ve done it. Had to shop around. Had a pre-existing condition written out of coverage, which sucked, but wasn’t a show stopper. It’s doable. Or find a job with good benefits. Also doable. And sometimes, you know, things aren’t perfect. You can be between jobs and without coverage. But, given the majority of the world’s population lives in bone-crushing poverty (which we slowly are alleviating through the evil “shipping of jobs overseas”), I can go a few months between jobs without health coverage and still understand that at one point, in America, there was no real health insurance. That even if there had been, most of the treatments and cures for common ailments simply weren’t available. That I could, right now, be living in a 3rd world hut with no indoor plumbing and no real hospital care available at all. So, all told, things are pretty good, and throwing a wrench in the system that has created the 1st world wealth of hospitals, universities, libraries, indoor plumbing, air condition and the Internet that we just all take for granted–monkeying with that because we think that rich people need to pay to fix everything is just not smart, in my opinion.

    “I am willing to pay more in taxes if it means we can stop owing China money.”

    This is never going to happen with our government as presently constituted. And not just because politicians are not capable of restraining themselves when it comes to spending our tax money. It also won’t happen because the more you pay in taxes, and the more the rich pay in taxes, the more revenues to the Federal treasury will stagnate as economic activity is curtailed or moved elsewhere, because of higher taxes.

    Punishing economic activity with punitive taxes reduces the activity, which reduces the amount of money that is taxable. When you lower taxes, economic activity increases, and there are more taxable transactions. As such, with the Bush tax cuts–that benefitted the rich the most!–there was more money coming into the treasury, not less. After the Republicans got Clinton to go along with a reduction in the capital gains tax, revenues from capital gains taxes went up, not down.

    The only thing raising taxes is going to do is make it harder “not to owe China any money”. But the reason we do is because we can’t stop spending, and we won’t. Revenues to the Federal treasury exploded after the Bush tax cuts. They’ve been higher, after the tax cuts, than they ever have in the history of the country. But spending has been higher still. The Iraq War, the Department of Homeland Security, prescription drug benefits and tons of pork are what keep us in debt to China and Saudi Arabia. And if we raise taxes, we will keep spending, but revenues will likely decrease (they are going to no matter what, right now)–the result being our debt increases, rather than decreases. So the only justification for supporting raising taxes in your scenario is the emotional satisfaction that everybody is doing “their fair share” and that you are “doing something”. Because the practical result is almost sure to increase our debt and stagnate our economy.

    BTW, I agree with you on the $700 billion dollar bailout. That’s nuts. I don’t think the rich should be penalized for building wealth, but, by the same token, they should not be spared the consequences of their decisions. Risk should not be socialized, and profits should not be, either. Any company that needs a billion dollar bailout to stay in business should go out of business for pursuing crazy lending practices, among other things.

    AIG made very poor decisions regarding investments and cash on hand–insurance companies are supposed to spread risk on a pool of cash, not a pool of risky investments. They decided they could be cash-poor and risky-investment rich, and they should pay he price in the marketplace.

    The banks getting the money–supposedly to fix our liquidity crisis–are instead hoarding the money or thinking about putting it towards acquisitions, so they, too, will be “too big to fail” when the results of the bailout bill crash our economy. Most of our debate on taxation and “the rich” is academic, because the DC elite and our elected representatives are busy torpedoing the economy in order that they might “look like they did something” in time for the next election.

    Ah, well. Otherwise, I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    “Like I have been saying we all need to put aside all the crap and just work together.”

    I can’t work together with someone who thinks we can tax our way to prosperity. Because you are simply factually incorrect. We may share common goals, but we are diameterically opposed as how we should get there. Even if the rich all wanted the government to raise taxes–and lots of them do, believe it or not–I would still be against it. Because it just proves my contention that rich people are often stupid and short-sighted. Because their paying more taxes is not going to help our economy. And it will not help get us out of debt.

    Laterz, Mr. America. Peace.

  8. 8 Mr. America October 28, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    Your idea that the rich have had everything against them and need bigger tax breaks is astounding to me. I just cannont understand how you think more of the same is going to help out our economy.

    I keep saying that the government is a big problem and you keep ignoring that fact. I have no faith that anybody in government knows how to govern properly. We need to change how things are done in the government period.

    The rich have developed the current business system. They have deregulated and wrote favorable legislation to able them to make more money. They pour millions of dollars into lobbyists. It’s stupid to think that the rich are not in control of the way business works.

    We need higher taxes for the rich to rebuild a system that has been decimated by the rich and their legislation. There is no other way to change how the rich make money in America which is what is needed.

    I’m sure memetrics that you have tons of plans on how to fix the economy. I am sure they all involve shifting more tax burden to the middle class so the rich can make more money and hopefully they will do the right thing and invest back into America. But I think I did hear Greenspan say that after he deregulated wallstreet he thought the banks and the rich would regulate themselves. When they didn’t things got worse. You cannot expect the rich to do the best thing for America. They will always do what is best for their money.

    I am blaming the rich because they are the ones who created the business system we are all suffering from as we speak. It is not envy or hate but I guess you need these words to defend your position. If the rich are asked to foot the bill for their actions it is envy and hate but when the middle class is asked to foot the bill it is called progress. Give me a break.

    You always are trying to make the rich look like victims. They are just victims of a stupid society that wants to take all their money away. But when I make claims that the rich are trying to take all the money of the middle class guys like you say I have no idea what i’m talking about. It is always the position of the rich that they can take from you but if you take from them its just wrong on every imaginable level.

    In a way I guess I do envy the top 1%. I envy the way they always portray themselves as the great victims. I envy the way their life is not affected by the bad business practices the rich have been involved in.

    Your argument that higher taxes for the rich will do nothing but make everyone suffer is wrong. And your idea that because we live better than people in a third world country is why we should give the rich more tax breaks is laughable. Your point that shipping jobs overseas at the cost of Americans helps the world get out of poverty is shallow. Your point that Gates and Buffet are great givers makes me laugh. Those two are a big reason why we are in this mess in the first place.

    You are right in that we will never agree. While I think the rich should be forced to pay for the change to the system they broke you think that no matter what we do it won’t help anything because the government sucks so give the rich as much as possible and mabey we can pick up the crumbs. I for one don’t want to wait untill the rich get rich enough that they will start promoting business that is good for America because it will never happen. The rich will never feel rich enough to do any good.

    Our economy is not good right now. It will get worse. It seems that nothing but taxing the poor and giving to the rich will sove anything in your mind. Well I would like to hold the rich accountable for changing the way the American business model works. We need to tax them heavily and pass legislation that makes it hard to make money importing but easy to make money exporting.

    You tell me that I should buy my own insurance. I work a job where I do alot of physical activity and risk my life. Now I have to pay the whole cost of my healthcare when it is the company I work for that puts me at risk? They should have no liabilities to thier employees? Only the rich should get free health insurance? People in other countries don’t have any insurance so I should learn to live without it too? If I am a miner and get cancer from mining it is my fault for being a miner right? The company should have no liability for exposing me to cancer because I took the job? That kind of thinking is wrong and you know it.

    I am done with trying to defend my position. You think we need to lower taxes for the rich and everything will be o.k. I believe that we need to tax the rich more and change the American business model. Nothing you say will change the way I think and I know you will always think I just want to stick it to the rich. I don’t I just want the rich who paid massive amounts of money to lobbyists to get the economy they wanted to spend massive amounts of money to fix it. We all know the rich won’t do anything unless they are forced to. You can’t expect the rich to do the right thing.

  9. 9 memetrics October 29, 2008 at 12:40 am

    “In a way I guess I do envy the top 1%. I envy the way they always portray themselves as the great victims”

    Eww. Just, ewww. Of all the things to envy, victimhood? That just tain’t right.

    “You always are trying to make the rich look like victims.”

    Uh, no. Point to me where I’ve said the rich are victims? Dude, we’re going to be the victims of get-even-with-em-ism schemes to “make the rich pay their fair share”. They’re probably going to do all right. We’re going to be paying the price.

    “Our economy is not good right now. It will get worse. It seems that nothing but taxing the poor and giving to the rich will sove anything in your mind.”

    Uh, no. Are you being purposely dense? Just trying to egg me on by setting up strawmen? Then, fine. No, I don’t think the poor need to be taxed. I think everybody should be less taxes? One reason? More economic activity due to lower taxes increase revenues to the federal treasury. Ergo, more money for the government to spend, and hopefully some won’t be wasted.

    But the very idea that the government is going to be a better steward of private wealth than the folks who originally earned it, no matter what their flaws are, is just wrong. Find the biggest, richest, most callous, most poorly run corporation that rewards the failures of its top officers with huge golden parachutes, and they are dwarfed in foolishness, poor decision-making, intractable bureaucracy, and wastefulness by the federal government.

    But, no, to be clear, I’m against taxing the poor, corporate welfare, taxpayer bailouts for big corporations (I believe I already said that)–in fact, doesn’t it look to you, with the latest strings of “loans” and bailouts to big corporations and fat Wall Street banks that that wealth will be redistributed mainly to other rich people? Only the rich people who have better lobbyists and are more plugged-in to the D.C. cocktail circuit?

    “I am blaming the rich because they are the ones who created the business system we are all suffering from as we speak.”

    Much of what we’re suffering comes from the government, such as the GSEs Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Big banks, populated with liberal spread-other-peoples-wealth bankers who are plugged into the DC Democrat inside track (I’m sure you’re aware of all the sweetheart loans Democrats got from Countrywide Mortgage), lobbyists and others. The reality is, taxing small businesses (which is what is going to happen, while you believe “the rich are finally paying their fare share”) to pay for the excesses of a corrupt government and a bunch of billionaire bankers is not a good idea. I’m not sure if I can say it more clearly.

    First of all, even of the super-rich, only a small fraction of them are involved–hand in hand with DC politicians, like Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd and Maxine Waters–with our current economic tragedy. But they should all be held to blame? If you’re neighbor kills somebody, I should hold you responsible? After all, you lived next door to the guy. You should do some jail time, too. It’s only fair. What kind of thinking is that?

    Second, it ain’t the super-rich who are going to be paying all these fancy new taxes “on the rich”. It’s going to be us, our immediate employers, the customers of our employers–these are going to be the “rich” people who end up paying the taxes, and the people most directly responsible for this current debacle are going to get bailed out by these guys. And all the while, we’ll be being told: Oh, the rich are really paying their fair share now.

  10. 10 memetrics October 29, 2008 at 1:06 am

    “I for one don’t want to wait untill the rich get rich enough that they will start promoting business that is good for America because it will never happen. The rich will never feel rich enough to do any good.”

    I know people who are convinced that a hidden code in the Bible tells us when the End Days are, too. And nothing is going to convince them otherwise, so I can’t explain to you that what you just said isn’t the point. It’s like you’re reading a map to Detroit, MI and you’re in Austin, TX. No matter how sure you are it’s the greatest map ever, it’s not going to take you where you think it’s going to take you.

    I would suggest you read Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations, and Thomas Sowell’s Basic Economics as a start. Much more expensive, but very accessible and entirely non-partisan is Timothy Taylors audio or (if you are super-rich) DVD set on Economics from The Teaching Company.

    http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=550

    I borrowed my mother’s copy–and she liked it, and she’s a big liberal, and generally does not agree with my economic positions, either. But then, her sister believes in The Bible Code and thinks the End Days are nigh, so they share a little irrationality in common.

    ” Nothing you say will change the way I think and I know you will always think I just want to stick it to the rich.”

    Fine, you don’t want to stick it to the rich. That wasn’t initially clear, and I accept that. Alas, I think a lot of people do, I think public policy is being drafted with that in mind, or with just the vague notion that there’s lots of money in the private sector and elites in government can do better things with it, so they should get to take it and spend it on important things, like pork for their state.

    “Your argument that higher taxes for the rich will do nothing but make everyone suffer is wrong.”

    It won’t necessarily make everyone suffer, but it will slow economic growth and make things, overall, worse. To the degree that it doesn’t is a testament to all the free-market capitalism our new freedom-strangling socialism will be built upon. My argument is that higher taxes on the rich will strangle economic growth–fortunately, we’re a big country and it won’t turn us into a 3rd world nation–and won’t, in the end, be strictly on “the rich”. There’s a lot of money in small businesses, in LLCs, in sole proprietorships that file on their personal income tax.

    I suppose, if we lived in an ideal world with an ideal government, perhaps the efficient allocation of resources from the private to the public sectors would be a good idea. But we are not ideal creatures, and this is not an ideal world, and the results will have numerous unintended consequences (and intended, if hidden consequences), and the results will be bad. The tried command economies and “to each according to his needs, from each according to his means” in the Soviet Union. Heck, the pilgrims tried it here when they first got here, and after a year of it they almost starved to death. When people got to keep everything they produced and barter accordingly, suddenly they had plenty, and weren’t on the brink of starvation. Funny how that works.

    Look, in the end, you’re going to get more of your socialist paradise than I’m going to get of my ruggedly-indivudalistic free-market run amok red state America. But, like George Orwell (I’m thinking either of Down and Out in Paris and London or Keep the Aspidistra Flying, not 1984 or Animal Farm, though they are good books, too), I think you will be disappointed with the results.

    “Your idea that the rich have had everything against them and need bigger tax breaks is astounding to me. I just cannont understand how you think more of the same is going to help out our economy.”

    First, it’s not “more of the same” in terms of what has led us to our current economic crisis. I can’t get into all right now, but tax breaks for everybody, not just the rich, have nothing to do with Sarbanes-Oxley, Mark-to-Market accounting, corrupt ratings agencies, naked short selling, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, affordable housing initiatives or any of the multiple things that helped get us where we are at now.

    Second, my idea is not that “the rich have had everything against them”. This is that taxing “the rich” is (a) a form of killing the goose that lays the golden egg and/or (b) ends up proving the proverb that he who lives be the sword dies by the sword. You will either find yourself unexpectedly “rich” in the eyes of the government, or your employer will find himself too “rich” to keep employing you or pay you more money, and the law of unintended consequences will prove itself yet again.

    Speaking of the Law of Unintended Consequences, I heartily recommend the book “Something for Nothing” by Brian Tracy, in book or audio form (I listened to the audio). He’s great, but if you truly believe what you sound like you believe, you won’t like the book. But it might do you some good to listen to it. Or read it.

    http://www.amazon.com/Something-Nothing-All-Consuming-American-Nightmare/dp/1595550380

    I’ve done all I can here. Off to review homework with the children.

    And your idea that because we live better than people in a third world country is why we should give the rich more tax breaks is laughable”


  1. 1 You Want the Tax Cut Facts? Democrats Will Raise Your Taxes … | Personal Finance and Me Trackback on March 28, 2009 at 12:56 pm

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